[Scott Reed writes:]
I am wondering if anyone else feels the way I do. Maybe I am just not smart enough, but I am not a happy hobo. After visiting the Caboose Hobbies and other web sites for the model railroader, I found that the selling price of a particular NEW N&W steam loco to be HIGHER that the manufacturer's price! Is it just me, or is that just not right? I am sure that all the N&W steam fans know that Proto 2000 came out with the Heritage Line ... It ought to be called the "Take Advantage of Customers/Modelers" Line. I have several diesel locos from Life-Like and I thought they were all reasonably priced, they were supposed to be limited and they are abounds of plenty. I know this is a great piece of work made in a European Country, but come on, fellas! Then to find out they are REALLY LIMITED, what is that all about??? I know that this model can be used as an excellent starting point for several kit bashes into a wide range of locos for several roads. This is not a one of a kind loco, this was a main stay for several years, or the basic design anyway. Limited, that is the kicker, I guess I do not get it! I model for FUN AND RELAXATION, not to drive the prices up on rolling stock and locos so my wife can sell of my collection and be a millionaire when I am dead and gone. I am going to write a letter with some good steam for the folks at Life-Like, but I think I should calm down before I do. Everytime I even think about the $375.00 price for this I get fired up all over again......

For a young guy like me, with a wife and family, that is almost four month's worth of the modeling budget, for modeling supplies that I can get years of enjoyment out of. Maybe I have missed something that some one with a cooler head could point out???

[John Munson chimes in:]
You could always build your own from scratch. :) Don't you think $375 is worth a few years of your spare time?

[Jim Brewer responds:]
I think the deal with Life Like is probably more complicated than any of us will ever know. However, they are trying to correct a situation that they see in the market, and this is their first effort at it. First, the Heritage 2-8-8-2 will be an extremely limited run. Part of the problem in the past has been that there are several "distributors" who really are just dealers; they only distribute from their back room to their front retail area. As such, they were able to purchase the diesels at distributor terms, rather than dealer terms. I understand that distributor terms are 55-60% off the suggested retail; these same "distributors" would then sell the goodies for less than the "dealers" could purchase them, typically at 40% off. I saw this several times at various train shows where a "dealer" was selling Proto 2000 (P2K) diesels for $30 or $35, for a $85/$95 list-price item. I understand that Life Like has determined who the "distributor/dealers" are, and has agreed to sell to them only as dealers. They are trying to keep the playing field level; this policy does not affect the major, legitimate distributors such as Walthers and Great Plains.

All that being said, let us not forget the law of supply and demand; my guess is Life Like is producing less than 600 pieces per road number; the suggested retail price is $375.00 which is a bargain compared to the the Rivarossi Y6b and any N&Wbrass that you can imagine. I have seen one of the Y3s and it is truly remarkable. I also understand that the dealer net is $225.00. So you can take whatever price you've seen advertised and figure out just what profit your dealer is making. Remember, profit is not a dirty word, and the dealer has overhead that he/she has to pay somehow. And the value of something I own is dependent upon how much you are willing to pay me to part with it.

I don't think any complaing to Life Like about the price will do anyone any good; they are already sold out of this run and have absolutely no intention of doing a second run until this time next year. Perhaps a more constructive thing to do would be to write and encourage them to offer the model with the 18000 gallon tender, which was the more common companion to the Y3 on N&W in the later years. For now I'll be happy with that 16000 gallon tender on this first run, but I sure would love to get my hands on the 18K version. As N&W modelers, we are very fortunate that Life Like chose the Y3 as its first steam locomotive in the P2K/Heritage line. I understand that Life Like will one day do the Phase II version of the GP9, something all N&W modelers need; let's not make them mad and have that project dropped into the round file. A few years ago Stewart Models released some locomotive in B&O and immediately took a lot of heat from the BEANO crowd about his choice of blue; he took so much heat that he didn't do anything else in B&O until very recently with the FT. A lesson maybe we should all learn from.

Bottom line is save your money and put all that energy to more creative uses.

[Zachary Scellato points out:] Please do not send a letter of complaint. The Y3 from Life Like is the best plastic model of a steam engine ever built. In brass it would be 1500.00. At 375.00 it is well worth it.

[Roger Huber adds:]
I haven't called Caboose Hobbies or any other internet shop, but the local shops here in Houston are selling them at or below retail. One has them for (I believe?!?) $295 and one has a sticker on his for $375. Maybe you should try your local shops first? Good luck!

[Ben Blevins:]

I have personally seen one of the new Y3's, and when I first saw it I argued heavily that it was BRASS! It looked that good! It is super detailed, even down the bell cord running across the top to the cab. I am not necessarially a rivet counter, but it was as heavy as any brass locomotive I have ever seen, and looked pretty much as perfect as HO scale can get to me. If I had the money I would have paid full retail for it! The quality of this locomotive rivals the like of a brass A, not a Bachmann J or the Rivarossi Y6b. It will fit right in there with your brass, and I'll bet those who know no different will swear that it is just as much brass as your others (for those of you who have brass).

[Thomas Cosgrove writes:]
Yes, Scott, many of the things you say are right. Now, go out and try to make a living with the manufacturer playing these limited run games. We dealers don't get what we order, so you as my customer don't get what you back-order from me, so I look bad (and I don't even make the sale!) and the manufacturers and distributors don't care because if I don't buy it SOMEONE, anyone WILL.

[Stuart Thayer notes:]
Scott, The problem is that Life-Like will continue to market and sell items such as the Y-3 as limited, high priced items as long as there is a strong market for them. With regards to the Y-3, they were all sold before they even hit the country. This tells Life-Like that there is a VERY good market for this type of thing. I don't like the fact that these locomotives were limited and $375 anymore then you do. This shot down any ideas I had about a mid-50's time frame for my future layout. However, I am not going to let this bother me. Instead, I will model diesels, and let the market tell Life-Like that this is not reasonable. I think that eventually this limited edition, high-priced gravy train will come to an end. Just my opinion.

[Nate Cox:]
I thought the price was only $275. Still high, but not soooooo high.

[Andre Jackson:]
Yep, $375 is pretty dear, but a local dealer in St. Louis is promising them for $300 even. Steep, yes, but compare to a crappy Rivarossi Y6b -- you know, the one with the extra 2 scale feet in cab length to accommodate the '60s-era 3-pole motor that started turning at about 9.9 volts. I know, the newer Rivarossis have better motors and spartan cab interiors where the old motor used to be (the cab interior's from a Y3 BTW, the stoker housing's all wrong). Still, the siderods are clunky at best, the crankpins are about 2 scale feet in diameter and the drivers are still visibly, woefully undersized (53.5" on the new runs vs. 51" for the old, big-flange runs). The prototype had 57"-58." Think that difference ain't much, pose one next to an Oriental Powerhouse or the new P2K... Now, you get all those nice, big flaws for only $188 plus shipping direct from Model Expo. We won't mention the tender and its giant mold separation grooves. FWIW, $375's exactly what the Powerhouse brass/zamac hybrids listed for a decade ago. IMHO, the P2K has much better detailing. Check the train shows, P2K E's routinely go for $65/up, depending on road name. The best prices I've seen on the E6 A/B sets is over $100; that's for a diesel drive train that's lots simpler to build/design than 16 drivers worth of rods, gears, valve gear, etc. And, this has been argued on the 'net ad nauseum, but I don't know that there are as many steam modelers as those seeking diesels. I'm ducking as I write this ... :) Of course, Bachmann seems to be taking the middle road with the Spectrum steam series -- more generic models than the P2K with not-quite-as-good detailing (but still damned good) and good drives, although the deeper-than-RP25 flanges are a minor letdown. As for me, I'm hoping P2K does the entire Holy Trinity of N&W modern steam (A, J, Y). Another time, I'll do a rant over the Botchmann J. Of course, I'm hoping that it's feasible for P2K to produce an N&W M if the limited-run thing works. $600 was a bit dear for the latest Sunset version. Of course, with the drive train already amortized, could the P2K folks top the mechanism with a stellar Y6? Could the N&WHS guarantee enough sales to make it happen through advance subscriptions? Also, anybody wanna buy a mint-in-the-box Model Expo Y6b? :) My modeling $$$ are limited also, what with wife, 2 kids, 1 cat and old house to feed... Thanx 4 listening.

[John Lisica writes:]
I've been reading with amusement, the original question and responses regarding the Heritage Y3. It looks like it boils down to a "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" situation. Why shouldn't someone who has had a good working relationship with LL receive preferential treatment? That's the American way. One hand washes the other.

While we are at it, let me get on the soap box. If you took the time to use your computer to grip about the $375 list price, take some more time to search the web for a deal. Anyone who pays list for any train related item is not doing there homework. I just spent some time in Denver (we all know where to go when in Denver) and saw the ATSF version and it is a honey. One thing no one has mentioned and plays heavily with the price is the Customs duty that LL has to pay, since this is made in Austria and even with their most favored nation status the duty on toys is high. (Yes guys, in the real world of the government, this is considered a toy!). Custom Brass Y3's are going for in the $1100 to $1300 range. So $375 isn't really that bad if you're willing to pay list. As for the recent Sunset M, I paid under $2200 for all four of mine with a little web searching. As someone stated, it is supply and demand, that is why you see dealers selling P2Ks for $30 or $35. When some of these sit on the shelf for a year or two, you get rid of them and cut your loses.

LL knows what the market is all about. Are you that naive to think that LL wouldn't do it's homework and see what the vibes were out
there? Everyone was biting at the bit when the rumors started floating around.

I can appreciate family, dogs, tuition etc., I know I put three engineers through college, but the bottom line is if you can't pay..... don't play or play on a lesser field! Finally, don't whine, be thankful that there is something out there for us and listen to Zachary's plea.

[Larry Crocker]
I agree that the price for the Y3 is high, especially considering it's plastic, but as others have said, look at the Rivarossi Y6b, it's just under $300.00 in many places. I've seen them in my area for as low as $180.00 but that's not the norm. Back to the Y3, I don't blame Life-Like for making the run limited. After all, they're testing the water when it comes to selling steam locomotives and unfortunately some N&W steam models haven't been big sellers in many parts of the country. We, as N&W/VGN fans, look at the situation differently than the manufacturer. They are looking at a nation wide market and we just want what "we want". So don't complain to Life-Like, rather do as Jim Brewer advised and write, or e-mail, and tell them you hope they will do more Norfolk and Western models. Pour out a little honey rather than vinegar, it leaves a better taste and we might see more of the models we all want.

[Ed King growls:]
I love the fact that these importers can get the last detail, even down to the bell cord, but don't know how to set the eccentric cranks so the mechanism will work like the real one did. Of course, they started not knowing this back in 1953 or so when the first imports started coming over. Ben (Blevins, in message above), if your Proto 2K Y-3 was real, and you fired it up, and put the reverse lever in forward motion and opened the throttle, the right side of the engine would try to back up and the left side go forward. The same is true of that new light USRA 4-8-2 that's out now, only the left side would try to back up, etc. All these years, and they still can't get it right.

[From Gary Rolih:]
One question you might consider when reviewing the selling price of the LL Y-3 is what should LL really sell it for? The manufacturer can identify the COST of designing the model, making the tooling, import duty, shipping and so on. But, what will the customer pay for it? If a manufacturer introduces a diesel model, the pricing points are pretty well described by the existing market. If he wants a certain margin, say 70% to cover the discount structure and the risk, then he designs to COST to hit the selling pricing points and maintain the margins. But, what should a plastic steam loco sell for? Not many out in the marketplace to use as a baseline. How many will be sold, how fast? All of these things and more are uncertainties to a manufacturer. In contrast, the "Athearn" level of boxcar kit in HO has a price that is well established in the minds of the modeling community. If Athearn raised its price for these simple kits by 50%, what would the response of the community/customer be?

[A. P. Robinson asks:]
Can anyone opine on the accuracy of the 16,000 gallong (16K) tenders behind the two numbers Proto has chosen for the Y3, 2011 and 2019? Checked the article in the Williamson '53 book, but it was not much help. I'd imagine that the Y3's carried the 16k's at one time and got the 18k's later, but thought I'd ask the collective experts to see if we had anything more concrete. Besides, our other P2k Y3 debate is probably running out of steam (pun intended).

[HA! Not yet, it's not! - Webmaster]

[Mark Lindsey joins the list with a short rant:]
If it's such a great job, why is it based on the Rivirossi Y6b transport? Why not hinge it where it is SUPPOSED to be??? The Powerhouse?Oriental Ltd Y3's of 13 years ago were not bad for $275. They sell today for $400. Why not the pre-1941 paint scheme either?? Tenders not a seperate item? Lifelike sure has limited scope. Who did the research for them? Where is a list of engines
that got Y5 front engines after the Y5's got cast frames?

---------------------------------------
[Andre Jackson writes:]
For Rivarossi parts, try International. Hobbies. They have ads in most of the modeling mags, and are the old Rivarossi importer. Model Expo, the new importer, might also have parts for the new-run stuff. Cheerz!

---------------------------------------
[Kurt Kramke adds:]
After reading all the debate on the Y's, I'm going to add my observations.

To begin with, all models are a compromise, and each have their flaws. It's how much are you willing to do to correct the flaws. With the Rivarossi product listing at $100 less than the Life Like product, what can be done to improve it? With the newer Y6's having the smaller flanges, operation wise they do not need to be changed. If you want to have the proper sized drivers, look at MDC or Mantua for the proper size drivers(you'll have to measure them). They will cost about $50 a set of eight. Rods can be made out of brass stock in short order, cost about $2 a set. Details on the boiler, pumps, reverse gear, piping etc. about $15-20 depending on what you replace and whose product it is. To take care of the starting speed, replace the motor with one from NWSL for about $25. For the things that I would want to change on bothlocomotives, handrails and other oversized parts and repainting would cost the same. Total cost to bring the Rivarossi to the same level as the Life Like is about $100 and you get to put the correct parts on per prototype.

I have been surprised that the Rivarossi Y has not gone up in list price since the late 1980's. I have nine of them,one for parts, which once my layout is done, I'll be converting them to the various classes of Y's that were on the N&W. The most I paid for one is $75 with an average of $45 for all nine. I will be doing all of the above as well as building new frames for each locomotive, and yes the cranks will be offset. For more of my views on the current pricing of models, see the April 1999 issue of Mainline Modeler and my letter to the editor. I hope this trend does not continue until nobody operates these models and just keeps them in the box, just like brass collectors do.

[Mike Rector:]
Just thought I'd weigh in on the Y-3 debate before I'm the only one left on the mailing list who had not spoken up yet!

I am glad that they chose the 16,000 gallon tender, as I have an Oriental Y-3 with the 18,000 gallon fishbottom tender already, as I'd suspect many others do. If Life-Like were to do another tender, it would be super to get the 18,000 water bottom tender. Also, it would be great if they changed the tooling slightly and did a Y-3a. This would seem to expand the market with minimal tooling cost to them. As for the price, I just saw an ad in Model Railroader for $249.99. I did not check to see whether they have any available, as I already ordered one from my hobby store. And, even though my hobby funds are not unlimited, I did not even ask before ordering because I
was so glad to see this product being manufactured, and I could not wait to have one. So, I'm siding with the "Way to go Life-like" guys on this issue.

[Here's a word from Paul Giles:]
I am writing this after reading the previous discussions about the Proto 2000 Y3 model that has been released. As most model railroaders, I too have a limited budget and I always try to find my motive power and rolling stock at the best prices. I found myself excited when I saw that Proto 2000 was making a model of a Norfolk and Western Y3. I found myself disappointed when I saw the suggested price at the bottom of the add in the magazine. This is a lot of money for one locomotive. I'll agree that for a model of a locomotive which is not currently very available in anything other than brass, this is cheap. I own one of the reworked Model Expo/Rivarossi Y6bs' and they are very nice running, and as far as I am concerned ,very nice looking also. I am sure, since I've yet to
see one in real life, that the P2K model is of as high of quality as one would expect if they are familiar with any of the diesels that share the P2K label. I own quite a few P2K diesels and I love the quality that has been put into them. I do believe however that Life Like is trying to push the envelope with the prices on their products, and this is just the latest attempt to raise the bar. If Model Expo with
all of its minor imperfections (referring to the reworked version only) can afford to offer their Mallet Type Locomotive for less that $200 a piece, then why does Life Like feel it has to charge almost twice that amount for its Mallet? Both are made in countries outside of the USA, so both are using presumably cheaper labor than they would find in this country. The only difference I can see is in the label and the amount of detail.

I don't think that Life Like will appreciate any negative letters or e-mails regarding the prices on their products. I also do not think they will care what we say about their prices in letters. I agree that as modelers we should not be trying to ruffle the feathers of those who are nice enough to think of the roadnames we chose to model when they decide to manufacture new products (or re-release old product lines). I feel that if you do not like the price than you should do the same thing you would do if you did not like the product. Vote with your wallet! No one forces you to buy any of the products at any price. This is a hobby. not a necessity. I love trains, always have and always will. I will always remain in the hobby as long as I am able to. I will always buy Proto 2000 products, but only as long as I can afford to. Unfortunately this model at the prices I have seen, of which some have been more and some have been less than the suggested price, may fall into the "can not buy new" category. These models will at some time appear used (in varying degrees of condition) and it is always a possibility that a different manufacturer will produce a comparable model at a more reasonable price that I can afford. Either way, it is not the end of the world, and we can all still model the N&W just not the Y3 if we can't or won't buy it. As for the dealer who wrote into the Q&A: If you're a good dealer who does not try to gouge the local consumers, then I feel sorry for thhe situation you mentioned. Unfortunately most of the dealers I know either try to charge as much as possible by taking advanced reservations on models like this or simply charge too much more on models like this than the mail order places due to necessity to get much sympathy from me. One dealer asked me if I wanted to give him somewhere in the ball park of $85 down on one or more of the P2K models as an advanced
reservation on the order he placed, and still pay a little over $300 per model once they came in! I told him "no thanks, I've already found it for sale for less on the internet".

[Ben Blevins pipes up again:]
In response to Mr. Ed K.:
I have no idea what you are refering to with the eccentric crank! Remember, after all, I am an A.S. (after steam) person here, and unfortunately don't know much about steam locomotive physics, but I'm working on it! Can you help me out here?
[Yes! See the following item. -Webmaster]

So, friend, what do YOU think? Join the N&WHS mailing-list discussion group and let us know!